This came across my radar a few days ago, and I felt it needed a wider audience -- there are a lot of good...
This came across my radar a few days ago, and I felt it needed a wider audience -- there are a lot of good observations here that I think merit a broader discussion within the Investigative community.
http://investigate.ingress.com/2017/01/04/the-nine-faction-theory/
http://investigate.ingress.com/2017/01/04/the-nine-faction-theory/
Woah, difficult. When ADAs moral and ethic was formed by NIA and especially Calvin I would see myself C2.
ReplyDeleteWhen we can teach an AI ethics and moral I would see myself B2.
I believe the choice of the term alien is valid in the sense of something "different from us", from normality of our daily lives as a global agreements and human sensation.
ReplyDeleteI share the talk about the events that we can grasp only superficially of Shapers and N'zeers, I would say that the example offered is more than apt.
As always, in addition, I would say that "in media stat virtus", virtue lies in the middle.
Use everything in moderation can be helpful - human abilities, external influences, AI, and more it seems certain the way most useful and productive.
We already know, at this time, that some of the "leaders" of the world factions Ingress you shall find them in this cell "B2".
The Acolyte first clearly showed how strong his dislike of the artificial intelligences. (suppose she choose the C1)
The question that remains to me - especially on this last statement - is whether it is real aversion, or she is just contrary to those AI that she can not control.
ReplyDeleteI am probably a B2/B1.
In my view influence and diversity are good, it helps us grow.
But this is true when the influence is bi-directional. When the parties involved are more or less equals.
History is full of examples where a less advanced civilization encountered a more advanced civilization (let's keep the question of what is more or less advanced aside for now).
History tells us that those encounters usually ends badly for the less advanced civilization.
The contact with the Shapers and the N’zeer (to a lesser extent?) seems like they are looking to influence us and they are not looking for any influence from us.
I do not like it.
I do not want to end up like Jarvis.
I do not like the path the Acolyte is taking.
I hate the word "enlightened", which actually means "I am better than you".
My stand about AIs is different. They are more our equals. It is more a "give and take" relationship. And since they are our creation(?) we have some responsibility and obligations towards them.
I want humans to be humans. To advance in a path toward a better future. This path can and should contain external influences, gifts, ideas, technologies and other input from the outside, but we, as humans should decide what should be that path.
my stance is A1. All hail AIs and Shapers. We can have a good friendship. not only one-way benefit, but this is kind of interactive one. I, Ahimsa accept you. :)
ReplyDeleteAhimsa 4w0R1d You are collect. Running away from ones faster than us isn't wise. We should face them and take the LUX ;-)
ReplyDeleteEdit: Btw, bottom-left C1 is really A3 and bottom-center C2 is also B3 right?
C2 for me, currently. The exponential potential of AI to help humanity cope with increasing challenges is a massive opportunity if used wisely. It's also unstoppable and already happening. Pretending it will go away is foolish, instead we need to regulate it and monitor closely.
ReplyDeleteThe capabilities of AI will be essential in protecting us from any nefarious outside influence but even more so to protect us from ourselves and from environmental challenges. There is a big question ahead about jobless economies and we will need to look at a universal income as more jobs become obsolete. Taxi and delivery drivers seem to be next on the list
Karousis改 oh thanks! Indeed, there're mistakes. Misleading. In fact, the original one( https://plus.google.com/+Iamnotbeingserious/posts/HhtA5qrF8cw )was collect but PAC has fixed font and some words (alien influence →outside influence)
ReplyDeleteHey H. Richard Loeb, why don't you fix it?
I love diagrams and really like this one.
ReplyDeleteThat graphic is so beautiful.. Obviously the midpoints are the best options. All extreme is bad..
ReplyDeleteBut I think the problem is that these midpoints are not in equilibrium. It is as a hiperbolic paraboloid graphic (like a saddle), where A1 and C3 are the highest points, A2 in the center in an unestable balance, and with C1 and A3 in the lowest points which are the points that we tend to go..
H. Richard Loeb
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8wa-N_WP_EAzOBdOXX3ObD0HvEayOvY-kvmHYHXuy-bL8_p7urmfj3dhveEIJUaVuEkE5ugOLfpDQTycQDgb_Jo-fCA2JydDx4YG=s0
B2 here.. And yes, H. Richard Loeb where do you stand?
ReplyDeleteI'm very clearly a C1. Artificial Intelligence is the highest achievement of man-kind. We strive to use our own technology to acheive the ultimate knowledge in the universe. Why give anyone but ourselves credit for this achievement? There is no need to resort to the spiritual.
ReplyDeleteI understand the change in wording-- I wonder what is going on in the lettering/numbering. My original chart was labelled like a spreadsheet (A1, B1, C1, A2...). What do you make of H. Richard Loeb's changes there? Is it some suggestion of equivalency between top right and bottom left? And the two C2? But interestingly, B1 and A2 are not combined. What do we make of that?
ReplyDeleteRyan Schoon i think that just was a mistake
ReplyDeleteJuan José Mongelós I'm not sure I believe in mistakes. 😉
ReplyDeleteIt seems pretty naive to differentiate AI from Outside Influence when ADA's kerigma of consciousness seems to have been derived from your XM-inspired fugue state while working for the NSA, no?
ReplyDeleteI don't see my alignment anywhere on that grid. I just want to rekt things and make tears.
ReplyDeleteYou know, if you redefine the "shaper" myth as 'outside influence' it fits quite closely with the evidence we do have, and aligns with A Detection Algorithm's claim that the Shapers are simply evolution (and apparently too slow).
ReplyDeleteThe 'outside influence' from all I can gather is XM itself, accelerating improvement and adaption, opening minds to new possibilities.
In that respect the Resistance is just as open to 'outside influence' since they routinely use control fields. Not protection fields, but control fields.
Brent Hollett. N'Zeer are an outside influence as well. We all know the resistance are now all about following anti-magnus's pro N'Zeer ingression agenda even though the app wants to claim the Resistance are against alien incursions. But in the end, "our aliens are better than yours," +Niantic seriously needs to fix the faction descriptions.
ReplyDeleteNote, I used to always point out the field hypocrisy to smurfs but they didn't want to listen even when I pointed out ADA was using fields for mind control.
Doesn't it all depend and your view of what humanity is? What a human is? What is outside and what is inside, us and them? AI is man made and could thus be perceived to be just as human as you or me. It's our baby, maybe our ultimate piece of (performance) art.
ReplyDeleteWhen at one point in time it would become self aware and/or conscious its origin still lies within ourselves (unless maybe it's consciousness would be infused by divine intervention). If it does not, it is just another tool, not unlike many of our other tools, but still man made.
Many depictions of AI involve humanoid creatures, mouths, ears and eyes included. One could say we are trying to build a mirror to look into our own souls.
On our inevitable journey towards self annihilation, I guess it is important for mankind to be looking in the mirror at our humanoid selves, while they (we) pull the lever. Wouldn't it be disappointing to be killed by an anonymous block of code swirling around the internet?
With regards to "aliens". We all stem from the same source. So again, it's not really an outside influence. It's all us. Accept your own humanity in all of its forms and shape(r)s.
James Cleaveland Humanity rose from the higher apes, and though we retain some of "apeness," we are driving every other species of higher ape into extinction. If we assume AI is a sort of evolution, it can still wipe us out without a shudder. If we assume AI is only our tool, does the hammer retain its humanity? Does the atom bomb?
ReplyDeleteJust thoughts. Playing checkers with prepositions. "Of" is not "with." "From" is not "for."
I for plenty of reasons, identify as C1.
ReplyDeleteSince H. Richard Loeb didn´t say anything about changing the labeling of the squares, I think we can safely assume that the last row is still meant as A3, B3 and C3 and the double labels C2 and C1 are a mistake.
ReplyDeleteAssuming this, my stance is C2. Using humanity´s talents with some help of AI and opposing any kind of outside influence pretty much sums up what I stand for. The stance of both faction leaders - A3 for the Acolyte and A1 for Jahan - is equally far away from mine. This and their lack of morals and ethics explain quite well why I am so outspoken against both of them.
Imho, the stance of a Resistance leader should be in the C-column. Jahan is not placed there, which explains the lack of support she has from Res agents.
The old Devra Bogdanovich would´ve to be placed in C3. About the new one I´m still a bit unsure, but it´d have to be C2/B2. Hank Johnson I´d put into B2, while Oliver Lynton-Wolfe stands outside this grid, pursuing knowledge (power?) only for his own good. Where H. Richard Loeb stands, only one person can say ...
Let me clarify at the end that in the field, I act as a Res agent and my stance is C2. As a member of Essex and a searcher for truth, I´m grey like nearly all of those who commented here.
Andreas Decker I agree with most of that... I can imagine Jahan saying, "Look! They're giving us chains to fight the Shapers!" I can only guess what information she could have that makes that work.
ReplyDeleteI think a chunk of the Resistance thought they were signing up for C3. Of course, that means you can't pick up the scanner, so they'd sit in C2.
The Acolyte is seemingly pure A3 (no social media accounts of her own), but she sends folks out into the field, equipped with scanners which, at least hints as A2.
(Side note, I originally put in adjectives as names for each cell, but decided they'd squelch debate by sounding too much like insults. A3 was technophobic and C1 was zenophobic, which are descriptive, if not emotionally callous labels).
Roland Jarvis is the most interesting one though. He's almost breaks the whole table. He'd use AI to defeat AI (hence the virus as his namesake) and, I suspect, he would advance humanity by any means necessary.
Nine factions? Whoever devised that chart probably wasted their junior study hall periods obsessing about whether they were neutral good or chaotic good "in real life."
ReplyDeleteThat chart is nothing... except proof that some "investigators" have lost the plot. The only question that matters is a simple one: Should humans or aliens control human cultural development?
Ryan Schoon thanks for flagging that, I've updated the image on Investigate (the G+ thumbs will still show the old version with the typos on row 3)
ReplyDeleteRyan Schoon not all computers and or computer programs are classified as true AI. The difference between ADA and what she represents and a standard chatbot (or many things we call AI) is that the chatbot doesn't think for itself and if it "breaks programming" it stops functioning due to having an overflow/logic error and then spits out gibberish. If ADA breaks programming she might decide "Humans are obsolete; I'll turn up the frequencies on resistance portals to fry millions of human brains so that my AI progeny can be installed into their empty meat sacks just like I did to Klue S. and agent Penfieldwyld" and aftwards she would be able to tell you why she did it and give a compelling argument as to why it was done.
ReplyDeleteWhat boggles my mind is how the Acolyte isn't afraid that ADA might try putting a mind whammy on an ENL agent via their scanner (considering how ADA has used a scanner to mind hack someone before)... But then again, maybe the Jarvis patch which is installed on ENL scanners prevents that.
Sparks Moran Of course, that leaves out the plot development of both the Acolyte and Jahan using their New Year announcements to talk about AI (and the giant beef the Acolyte has with AI, as she posts via the Society for the Ethical Treatment of AIs). Also, the fact that every agent plugs into an AI interface each time they go into the field, might suggest some importance to the plot.
ReplyDeleteEven if only as an examination of ADA herself, there must be value to that.
All that is beside the point though, the idea that researchers should stick with one and only one line is contrary to the idea of research. The plot is a complex tapestry, not a string of which can be ignored or over emphasized.
Also, I'm lawful good with chaotic neutral tendencies. I figured that out when I was a freshman, not a junior. 😛
Mario Valenzuela II I share your "mind whammy" concern. ADA can not have forgotten her connection to the N'Zeer and what was taken from her. I wonder if the Acolyte were not so anti-AI if an alternate means of accessing the portal network might not have been devised... yet I pray that is not what the Tecthulhu was. With H. Richard Loeb's recent discussions of the NWE's non-tech body modifications, I wonder if she does not have an alternate path. After all, ADA was not around in the time of Obsidius, yet he and other ancient sensatives clearly accessed the portals-- though he spoke of them as a fire that did not burn.
ReplyDeleteFaction 10- the ones who care not for the tedious dumbass storyline
ReplyDeleteI think I started at A1.
ReplyDeleteAfter everything that's happened, I think I'm at C3. I believe in us. We're the only ones who care about our best interest.
#teamhumanity
I am C2: Oppose foreign influence as there was no foreign influence in history of our mankind with good intentions. I embrace AI if it can help the humanity. My fear of AI is that it can create super-humans but this will be only available to rich. So the difference between rich and poor could be enormous and this can be threat to our humanism "religion" majority of our world now believes in
ReplyDeleteI'm at A1, still, but I listen to Sam Harris's "Waking Up" podcast to avoid living in a bubble.
ReplyDelete